Bill:  Wow that is a lot of questions in one email. But I will try to answer these and do so before my partner in crime, Steve Toburen, butts in with his snarky and sometimes unreliable technical analysis!

Here is the deal, Puzzled.  All protectors are designed to coat the fiber so that anything that has a higher dynes such as water will not be able to penetrate.  “Dynes” are just a unit of measure that determines the size of a molecule. A fluorochemical has a low dyne number while water or oil has a high number. (Think of a sieve that lets BBs through but won’t let marbles through.)

Longer protector drying time will always be an issue due to the dilution rate of 1-4 with waterbased protector meaning that if you spray a diluted gallon of Scotchgard 80% will be water that is not extracted. To alleviate the wetting issue you could use a solvent based protector (Matrix Fiber Guard) but I think the odor problems with those is worse than the wetting issue. Using a fan such as a DriEaz AirPath keeps the air more on the surface rather than disturbing the dust on tops of furniture. If that dust could mix with the protector is a point I cannot answer with any certainty.

Steve:  Big Billy not sure about a technical question?  Now that is one for the record books!

Bill:  I AM sure some dust does mix with the uncured protector but it will be walked off over time. As for the dirt still remaining on the primary that should still vacuum up because the protector covers the fiber surface not the backing.

Steve:  Puzzled, I gotta say in 20 years in business my company sprayed down 1,000′s of gallons of Scotchgard and I NEVER had one customer complain or even mention your concerns listed above.  So Puzzled, how can I tactfully say that there is a thin line between sincere interest in improving your technical prowess (which is good) and being a seriously obsessive-compulsive personality!  (Which is bad and a non-productive activity!)

Bill:  Since when have you ever been “tactful”, Steve?  Seriously, Puzzled, overall the benefits of a protector far outweigh your potential concerns. Thanks for the questions. This proves you have your customer’s best interest at heart and you are to be commended.

Bill, I was a student of yours in a Technical class at Jon-Don in Atlanta. The local Jon-Don folks recommended I pose this question about fabric upholstery cleaning to you. Here is the small inventory of the “Matrix” system I have on hand:

Can you make recommendations for the following “profit opportunity”? Or will it just be a headache I should avoid? (The customer is a good client of mine and I would like to help her out.)

The dilemma is with a silk headboard on a very expensive bed. The customer thinks that while making the bed her maid brushed her face against the headboard and the housekeeper’s makeup was smeared on a small area about the size of a golf ball. They haven’t tried anything to take it out (thank goodness!) and have called me on the problem.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Bill: This one may be a toughie! The biggest concerns for silk are water rings, which can occur from either water or solvents. Another big challenge with silk is fiber distortion if indeed this headboard has a pile texture.  Makeup is normally oily so a solvent would work best. Of the products you have Matrix Breakdown is the best to remove makeup. The problem is it must be rinsed out. You can use the Matrix All Fiber Rinse in an extractor BUT you must rinse evenly or it will leave ugly water rings. (Which will obviously be even worse than a “golf ball sized makeup stain”!)

My suggestion is to buy 1 gallon of ChemSpec Dry Fabric Cleaner. This is a solvent based product used in dry cleaning machines. Apply the product to a white towel and very gently blot the area then use a hair blower on a cool to warm setting to force it dry before it leaves a ring. If it all doesn’t come out repeat the procedure. This is your safest option.

Steve: Sounds like Bill has nailed it as usual.  However, let me stress two non-technical aspects of this sort of thing.  One is the need to pre-test the technique if possible.  (This is true even if it comes from the Master of All Things Technical, otherwise known as Mr. “Big Billy” Yeadon!)  So see if there is an inconspicuous area on the back of the headboard you can test the technique on.  Or on a headboard some of the fabric may be normally hidden by the mattress.  Try this area first.

My other concern/warning is the time honored principle “Not Letting the Customer’s Problem Become your Problem”.  Too many times I have rushed in to the rescue trying to be the “Knight in Shining White Armor” and wound up getting burned!  Pre-testing will be a big help in avoiding this problem plus don’t forget to pre-qualify both verbally and in writing.  Especially with a problem fabric the client must understand that the item is unusable as it stands and so if you further damage the fabric in trying to remove the stain it would have needed to be recovered anyway.  So at the very worst it becomes a zero-sum game.  At the best (which by following Bill’s sage advice above) you become a hero!

Let us know how it turns out!

Bill and Steve

But after having been begged by many cleaners Big Billy Yeadon and Steve Toburen (who will add the occasional snarky comment!) are going to moderate their very own “Clean Talk” Q & A column. Just think Tom and Ray from NPR’s Car Talk! So send in your technical head-scratchers (got fleas?) and those keep-you-awake-at-night nightmare jobs. Bill, Steve and the rest of us will do our level best to help you out! Email us at sfs@strategiesforsuccess.com

• Big Billy's guide to sanitizers, disinfectants and deodorizers September 15, 2011
• Staying up to date on the carpet manufacturing industry August 6, 2011
• How can I remove a "water ring" from an unidentified upholstery fabric? February 9, 2011
• Yellowed Herculon has got me stumped! December 6, 2010
• A nice leather chair that reeks of cat urine... peew! November 22, 2010
• Rx-20 vs. DriMaster- Which is the better power wand? November 15, 2010
• "The entire carpet is one big urine spot! What next?" November 8, 2010
• Cleaning a silk headboard spotted with oily makeup- a bad combination! October 25, 2010
• Encapsulation- what's all the hype about? October 18, 2010
• What products should I use for anti-allergy cleanings? September 27, 2010
• So is applying Scotchgard protector worth the headaches? September 20, 2010
• BBQ grease stains on Olefin carpet??? September 13, 2010
• Browning on a Berber Carpet- now what? August 9, 2010
• The Dirty Dozen Fabric Problems and How to Eliminate Them October 5, 2009
• Watch out for Problem Fabrics September 25, 2009
• Dog puke and Spot Out- a volatile combination? May 11, 2009

But then there are the situations where the technician does everything right and there is still a problem. This never occurs on a 399.00 Herculon sofa from Value City. In a  recent case I was involved in it was a 6000.00 sofa and the tech was a 30+ year veteran who performed all the proper pre-inspection procedures. This sofa was an organic cotton fabric that turned brown even though it was rinsed with an acid rinse and dryed quickly. The tech went through the usual procedures using browning formulas, Haitian Cotton formulas, and even 3% Hydrogen peroxide applications with the fabric in the sunlight.

The manufacturer, Lee Industries, was called and referred the cleaner to the retailer. As with most retailers they had no clue. So they went back to the manufacturer who refused to help anymore than referring back to the retailer. Lee Industries refers to themselves as the Earth Friendly Furniture manufacturer.  They have a whole list of their environmental issues. This includes soy based materials as well as recycled fibers.

Where it gets confusing is when they have an O code without any explanation. I sent an email to them and here is the response:

Cleaning Code O is Cleaning Recommendations for Organic Fabrics
For overall cleaning:  Wash in cold water, using a biodegradable detergent
or eco-friendly soap and air dry.  Organic dry cleaning is also
recommended.
For spot cleaning:  It is recommended that you test a small , inconspicuous
area with an eco-friendly cleaner.

Now that you have been thoroughly educated it should be easy to clean with your favorite eco-friendly cleaner.

My advice is to thoroughly study their website and be very careful with any of their fabrics.  Do not confuse Lee Industries with Lee’s Carpet which is a division of Mohawk.

I am starting to get larger jobs and want to look into either the RX-20 or the DriMaster. What is the difference in the two? What effect will a power wand have on my production?

Weighing My Options in Gainesville

RX-20

Bill: If these are trashed out commercial jobs you are talking about then the RX-20 is the hands down winner. The RX-20 has floating heads which allows it to compensate for the unlevel areas in the concrete. The DriMaster which is my choice for residential since the heads do not float and is designed to work on carpet over pad. The DriMaster is also lighter and will get under furniture better.

The RX-20 is a proven design as it has been the standard for several decades. In fact, many cleaning veterans would sell their businesses if they had to give up their RX-20′s.  (Our very own Island Boy, Steve Toburen, still misses his RX-20 and Steve retired from full-time cleaning almost 20 years ago!)

DriMaster

Steve: Ah yes, the sheer joy of transforming a trashed out residential Saxony carpet!  Couple the incredible pile restoring and agitation of a RX-20 along with good chemicals and the high heat/high extraction of a truck mount and the effects are magical!  The same goes double when dealing with a seriously greased up restaurant carpet and especially so if it is over pad.

HOWEVER, I found any rotary machine could have issues on a low pile direct glue down carpet on an uneven floor. But then a standard cleaning wand isn’t going to get a good seal either!  I’ll also mention that IF a commercial carpet is bad enough to need rotary extraction you probably aren’t going to see any great speed improvement.  You WILL see a dramatically better job which you should charge more for and therefore make more money!  Don’t charge quickie wand prices for a “carpet restoration job”.

Bill: Glad to see you are looking at expanding into larger commercial, Weighing. Many cleaners have found new profits in this sector. Try it out and if it goes well you would do well in considering encapsulation. Encapsulation technology can nicely round out your offerings and give you options in expanding your commercial operation.  VAST Instructor and Commercial Cleaning Specialist Jeff Cutshall has immense experience in this field and generously offered up his step-by-step guide to getting started in this Special Report “Building Encapsulation Routes”.

Steve: Nobody knows more about this business than Bill so I would never argue with him re: equipment or technical stuff.  (In fact, I only bicker with Bill over his drinking that dark brown horse pee called Guiness!)  However, I would gently suggest to Weighing that he consider buying a Cimex and getting into encapsulation even BEFORE marketing commercial.  (Not after as Big Billy suggests.)  Why?  Simply because of the the incredible pricing/bidding advantages the high production rate of the Cimex will give him.  Get the Encapsulation Report where Jeff and I actually break down a hypothetical 10,000 square foot job and show you how to price and present a killer monthly contract proposal.  And trust me- regular contract commercial “route work” will transform your business AND your net worth!

Where’s the dirt go? (Thanks Clara!)

That’s just shampoo. (Thanks Jimmy!)

No one is ever going to pay for that.

My truck mount (sounds of Tool Time Tim grunting) will make you look silly. (Oh did you know the carpet is on the 20th floor?)

Is that all there is? When do you finish the job?

Yes but it won’t take out (insert any stain here). (Neither will your truck mount. That is why it is called a “stain” versus a “spot”!)

Bill, if they see how well it works they won’t buy a truck mount! (Muffled sounds as Bill is dragged into the alley and beaten viciously by a gang of angry Jon-Don truck mount salespeople!)

Oh yes and there are many more statements even worse than the above but I am trying to “protect the guilty”! I have found that the longer a cleaner has has been in the business the harder the idea of encapsulation is to accept. For the youngsters in the group back when “steam cleaning” began the largest cleaning association in the country refused to accept these crazed rebels into their organization.

Well, all of the above was just my long-winded way (I’ve been hanging ournd Steve Toburen too long!) to introduce a story from an industry veteran on how he has used encapsulation as one of his cleaning tools.

Bill,

The Holders

We made an unofficial, non-scientific observation last week as to the performance of Matrix Double Strength Encapsulate. We have tried a few other encap products over time. They were all OK but we always end up back with Jon-Don’s DSE. Please feel free to pass this along if it is helpful.

As you know, most of my early career was spent with DuPont. During that time DuPont was developing and rolling-out what eventually became known as ResisTech. We believed at that time that it was the first encap product. After the long development and roll-out stage theResistech product performed exceptionally well.

Since most of the folks on the team had been used to TM extraction for most of their careers, it became the SOP (standard operating procedure) at DuPont that the carpet should be extracted about every 4 or 5 ResisTech cleanings. The thought was that you eventually have to “empty the sink”. Also, we had a lot of clients asking “Where does the dirt go?” So the “powers that be” at DuPont made it standard procedure to extract after 4 or 5 encap cleanings.

With this in the back of my mind…

We have a large funeral home that we clean about 4 or 5 times a year. The total square footage is 12,000 feet. When we first started cleaning them we only had a truck mount so that’s what we did. Then when we bought our first encap machine from Jon-Don we began encapping.

At first we would encap the secondary areas and TM the high traffic areas, eventually moving to complete encap. We have encapped the whole facility now about 5 times in a row. It always looks great when we finish.

Last week they called and only needed their lobby and hallways cleaned which is around 4,100 square feet. I told Elissa that we really needed to TM this time because it had been encapped 5 times. I felt we should “empty the sink”. Following a very thorough vacuuming we cleaned the areas with our truck mount.  (Which took more that twice the time,fuel and energy!)  When I got back (late) Elissa said that it would be interesting to see the waste water. When we drained the TM, I was surprised at what we found.

Normally when the TM is drained there is dark water followed by wet sand and other particles as the tank nears empty. We’ve all seen it a million times. I expected pretty much the same this time except I expected the particles to be much smaller since the encapsulation process breaks the soil up into smaller “slivers”.  What I found surprised me …

The water was somewhat dark but not as dark as a normal TM job. However, what intrigued me was that there was NO detectable signs of particulate in the waste water. I’m sure that there was some suspended in the water but none was notable.  There wasn’t even any particulate soil in the tank after draining.

After all of this I am more convinced than ever of the effectiveness and validity of the encapsulation process. We are going to be doing much more encapsualtion and much less truck mount cleaning.

As to the question, “Where does the dirt go?” I remember the late Bob Whittkamp who was at SFS with us a few years ago in St. Pete. During a demo one evening a couple of old TM fanatics kept trying to antagonize the trainer. They kept shouting over and over, “Where does the dirt go?”. Finally Bob got irritated and replied loudly, “It turns into money!”

Larry Holder
Regency Carpet And Floor Care

Thanks for sharing Larry! Glad to hear things are still going well for you. (Go here for more of the story on Larry and Elissa’s path to success.)

Thinking about adding encapsulation cleaning to your business?  Then download our new free Special Report on Building Commercial Encapsulation Routes.

Thanks,

Just a bit confused here In Eugene

Whoa, confused! Now you’re introducing a technical question into my BHC and as you know I’m not a technical guy. So let’s invite a guest consultant in, Big Billy Yeadon, who has forgotten more about cleaning chemistry than most of us have ever known. Bill, you’re up …

Dear Confused,
Bill here. It sounds like you are correct. Stomach acids from people or pets are very destructive and can bleach fabrics. Vomit has always been one of the materials that are not covered in a Stain Resist warranty such as Dupont Stainmaster and with good reason. In many cases the dog ate red dog food and then vomited which makes a nice red stain that is almost impossible to remove.

This may not even be a bleach spot, it may be just an over application of spotter which may have left a white residue that just needs to be rinsed. Spot Out as you mentioned is a neutral pH spotter which contains no reducers or oxidizers.

If the customer pushes the issue offer to use the same bottle of Spot Out on a scrap of the same carpet or in another area of the carpet and show that it will not bleach.

Hope this helps.
Big Billy Yeadon

Well, I’m back and as usual, Mr. Bill is right on target. You do need to test. BUT you will also need a “control” spot. So here is what you must do, Confused:

1. Find the dog.

2. Physically restrain it on top of a scrap of the same type of carpet.

3. (I recommend you glove up for this step.) Put your finger down the dog’s throat to help it “produce” the same type of spot as before.

4. If you are now missing a finger, remove the glove, wash your hands and put a finger from the other hand down your own throat. My guess is your “product” will not be all that different chemically from the dogs.

5. NOW that you have a control spot from either the dog (preferably!) or you, now you can show the home owner that it was not the spotter but rather the vomit that caused the bleaching action.

No gushing thanks necessary, guys. I’m just delighted to help.

Thinking outside of the box here in the Dominican Republic,

,Steve Toburen
Director of Training and technical advisor to the “guru”, Mr. Bill Yeadon
Jon-Don’s Strategies for Success

P.S. Seriously, Confused, it is possible that you’re just dealing with a lot of whitish spotter residue. Rinse and do lots of handholding. (With the customer, not the dog.) My guess is you will wind up with a Turbo Cheerleader.

P.P.S. Even with the (very) occasional call like this one you will find the “Free Spotter for Life” program is one of the best marketing tactics out there. It was a huge boost to our business over the years.

It seems like you normally deal with management, marketing and employee issues (headaches?) in your “Bleeding Hearts Club” section.  But I have an urgent technical problem and wanted to see if you could help or guide me to someone else.

This is my predicament. I just cleaned an older(over 15 years) berber carpet that has jute padding. The carpet was very dirty which prompted extra work and a lot of extra passes. It seems like in the process too much moisture went into the carpet and not enough was extracted due to the uneven texture of the pile. Well you probably already guessed the result!  Now browning has occurred in various areas.

I am a novice at carpet cleaning and desperately need some advice on any product and/or how to correct the browning. My customer WAS very happy until the browning happened overnight. Can the browning be corrected with an encapsulation product? I would obviously like to not apply more moisture than needed! We have a Procaps machine with the rotating brushes. Any help will be appreciated and will keep the insurance company out of the picture!

Scared in Tucson

Wow, Scared.  I’ve been there and done that.  Wouldn’t you know that your over-wetting situation would happen on a jute pad!  Well, you hit the nail on the head with my area of expertise.  I am hopelessly out of date on the new breed of chemicals out there.  (Fortunately for me people don’t change so the management/ marketing/ employee issues I focus on are pretty much the same!)

However, remember that Strategies for Success is about much more than Steve Toburen!  So I’ve asked Big Billy Yeadon, our resident technical guru and SFS music critic, to pop in and give you some very specific and up-to-date advice. Let us know how it turns out.

Steve

PS  Don’t worry- you won’t need to call your insurance agent!

Hi Scared,

Yes, you have classic browning, not the normal soil wicking that we often see from low pile, direct glue-down Olefin Berbers. I presume you pulled the carpet back to find the jute pad. If not, then you may have wicking and not browning.

We need to differentiate the problem to treat it properly. For browning I am going to recommend a prespray of a browning formula such as ChemSpec Browning Formula or an acid rinse such as Matrix All Fiber Rinse.  Spray either product lightly then use your Procaps machine to agitate. Follow up immediately with air movers.

If you do not have a jute pad you have simple wicking and I would use an encapsulant such as Matrix Double Strength Encapsulant followed up by the Procaps machine and airmovers.

Prior to either one of these treatments vacuum heavily as Berbers hold a tremendous amount of dry soil which can cause some of the wicking.

These techniques may take 1 or 2 tries but eventually you will get it back to normal.

Good luck.

Bill Yeadon

I attended last January’s SFS Class in Florida and found it very helpful in many ways.  However, now I could really use some advice/assistance.  I hope you can help me!

I am new to the carpet cleaning business and even newer to upholstery cleaning.  In January I signed up for Jon-Don’s Free Lifetime “Spot Out” program (which I love!) and have distributed about 150 bottles to my customers.  Today I received a call from someone (not my original customer) who said they used my Spot Out product on a dining room chair and it left a “water ring”.  When I asked about the fabric code/type she said she didn’t know as she bought the high end set second hand.  However, she “thinks” the fabric is rayon.

Since she isn’t my customer and I personally did not give her the Spot-Out my first instinct was to run away but she does have the Spot-Out with my logo and information on it.  So she convinced me to come out and “clean” all of the chairs for a charge.

Here are my 3 questions, Bill:

A. If the chair seats are rayon- can I wet clean them? How can I tell if they are rayon?

B. If I can’t wet clean them, is there a method of dry cleaning, (which I have never done) that I should use?

C. If I can’t “low risk” clean them at all, can I at least spot clean the ring from the Spot Out?

I would greatly appreciate any help you can give me.  Thank you!

Grasping in Gainesville

Dear Grasping,

Steve Toburen likes to say that “no good deed goes unpunished.”  This case is tricky as she has created a water ring which probably means that it is a natural fiber such as cotton or rayon. (Rayon is really just cotton that has been mixed with a high alkaline chemistry and extruded.)

If you can get a yarn off the bottom of the fabric (or try inside a chair skirt) then do a “burn test”. (Cotton/rayon will burn quickly and leave an orange burning ember that does not extinguish easily.)

If it is cotton or rayon a water ring will be difficult to remove. Your best bet, after you have explained that you cannot guarantee removal, is to clean it with Matrix All Fiber Rinse paying special attention to the ring. Add 1-2 ounces of isopropyl alcohol to the solution. Immediately dry it using a hair dryer on the cool setting until it dries. It may take a couple of attempts.

If this process does not get it all out bring some cheesecloth with you and after you have cleaned it wrap the chair cushion in a few layers of the cheesecloth (try weighting it with something to speed up the absorption) and the residue may wick into the cloth.

When you are doing the burn test if the fiber turns to ash quickly without the orange ember and smells like burning hair you may have silk which will be even more difficult. If that is the case use distilled water instead of tap water.

If your client starts being “difficult” (I think Steve calls them “discriminating” in SFS) remind her that the bottle states to test fabric before using the product.

Steve:  Bill, I would add that much of this conversation should happen over the phone even before Grasping takes on the job.  It is called “pre-qualifying”, otherwise known as “Not letting the customer’s problem become your problem”!

As for dry solvent cleaning it will not be effective as  a water-based stain can only come out with water. A petroleum solvent does not work on water rings or spots.

Good luck. Don’t try to be a hero. If you make it worse she may try to get you to replace all the chairs on your nickel.  (Read Steve’s comment above once again!)  One other option is she could take the cushion to a dry cleaner and they may be able to work on it in their plant.  Let us know what happens.

Bill Yeadon

PS from Steve:  One thing Bill might have overlooked here is to ask what the original spot was? As in, why was she dumping the Spot-Out on the chair in the first place?

NEWS FLASH UPDATE: Before we ‘went to press” with Bill’s advice here is what we heard back from our SFS Member in the field-

Hey Bill,

Thank you again for you advice on taking care of this dinning chair upholstery.  I placed an order at Jon-Don today and It reminded me to contact you regarding the results of our effort to remove the water rings from the chair.  The rings were pretty severe and I was not able to fully identify the fabric.  They did have a tag on the bottom but I wasn’t sure if they had be recovered and the very old looking tag was never removed.  The tag read, 70% wool and 30% jute.  I was able to cut only a very small thread and the burn test did not smell like hair and it didn’t linger with a glow like the rayon we thought it might be.  It burned very quickly and did not melt.   I explained to the potential customer the risked involved in trying to remove the rings and she understood that  I could make it worse.

I followed your advice exactly and the rings disappeared!!!  There was a little spot left which I believe was the original spot that she tried to clean but she was very pleased that we removed the severe water marks.  She wanted me to clean all six chairs and I decided that I’d better walk away and explained to her why.  She was OK with that and I presented her with a price to clean all of her carpet instead.  She said she’ll have me out in spring.

The moral to the story…

Follow the instructions on the  bottle!  And…

Make lemonade!

Thanks again!

Hello, Bill!

I hope all is going well in your world.

What is it with dog owner’s in Austin?  I’m still searching for a good solution for homes that have SEVERAL pet stains and odor  (too many to treat each one by sub-floor) and yet the owner doesn’t have the money to have the padding replaced, sub-floor sealed, etc. Many can’t even afford my fallback treatment of applying Matrix Urine Pre-conditioner / All Fiber Rinse to loosen the urine salts, followed by enzyme pre-spray & rinse.

As always, I provide a disclaimer stating I cannot guarantee 100% odor & stain removal.

My questions are…

1. What pre-spray &/or additive/booster do you recommend for treating the surface?

2. What are your thoughts on using Matrix Miracle as a pre-spray to treat the surface?

As always, thanks for your help!!!!  (Yet again.)

Tired of Pee in Austin

Dear Tired,

For an all over urine pre-spray you can use ChemSpec Kill Odor Plus. It is a topical prespray and will only take care of surface urine problems. Unfortunately, as you well know, most urine problems have penetrated not only the carpet and pad but also the sub-floor. The Number One principle of odor remediation is to remove the source (no I am not talking about the pet even though it is tempting to offer the “pet disposal option” to the home owner!) so we have to get to the base of the problem.

As you know Matrix Miracle is the best product in conjunction with the water claw spot lifter or the Dry Pro.

If you are going to use Miracle as an additive you need to be very, very CAREFUL. Being an oxidizer it will create oxygen and if it doesn’t have a release it will make its own. In other words it will blow the top off or break out the sides of a plastic sprayer.

If you are going to do this fill a 2 gallon sprayer with 1 gallon of your product, spray and immediately take the pressure off of the sprayer.  Do NOT forget to relieve the pressure!

TIRED- Please read this answer again as it will definitely explode if you are not careful.

Bill

Note: Specializing in treating pet odor decontamination is a very lucrative niche business. I strongly recommend you download my free Special Report on Pet Problems. And one more reminder- if you go the “quick and dirty” route in urine you must qualify, qualify, qualify and do so in writing with the owner signing off on it.  Even so, you will find some people are STILL disappointed- “BUT it still smells!”  Prepare yourself!